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Orgonaut
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:16 am    Post subject: MMS Reply with quote

Wondering if anyone has used MMS(miracle mineral supplement/sodiumchlorite)?

The treatment brought forth by jim humble for many cures and full body detox.

If so, it would b great to hear some experiences.
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karen
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi - I haven't read a lot about the MMS research, but I zeroed in on some basic principles. It's interesting when people are finding ways to get some relief from symptoms, but this is simply symptom relief and not curative of anything. And what helps to relieve symptoms for one person may not work for another.

If symptoms go away after using MMS, this doesnít mean that the root cause of a problem has been removed. We need to make the important distinction between disease, which is the root cause, and the symptoms that show up, which are the effects.

I would generally not advise people to use bleach because of its toxicity. Even though this compound may be considered relatively non-toxic, it's still creating some iatrogenic (drug-like) effect and isn't totally benign.

There are better ways to get the foundation people need for healing - with diet, nutrition and other lifestyle changes - and then if needed, to use a system of medicine that can work on the deeper causative level of disease.

For detox, it's important to do this in an individualized way, and also properly support the organs of elimination at the same time ("drainage.")

Also, just a word about testimonials - Just about every method used in alternative medicine can claim great success with some people. There are a few questions that need to be asked:

1. What is the *principle* behind the apparent success - Maybe the method killed microbes that are actually part of the healing process. Maybe the method simply corrected a certain imbalance but didn't fundamentally change the condition. Maybe the method caused the symptoms to subside, but where did they go? Do we know that what *caused* the symptoms has been removed?

2. If the symptoms has been suppressed, is that the best way to handle the problem? Do we know that the suppression didn't simply drive a disease entity deeper into the system where it could manifest in more serious symptoms later? Is the person really healthier at the core, or just feels better temporarily because a symptom has been quieted for the time being?

3. If something "works" for certain people, does that mean it will work for others?

These important questions are never addressed by testimonials.

-Karen
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Leo
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 12:16 am    Post subject: my experiences & 10 cents worth... Reply with quote

....interesting...

.....Yes, I have tried MMS. I read all about it first, mainly from Jim Humble'w website, whose website seems to be the origin & creation of MMS. I thought I'd give it a go....I agreed to do it with someone who was terminally ill, as a way of giving them moral & encouragement, so that they didn't feel they were going it alone, as it were. So we both started a course of MMS together...I got up to 7 drops & had two bouts of serious nausea, that I can only describe as psychological/mental nausea, it lasted most of the day, & was most unpleasant. I dropped down a drop, of MMS & continued, though did not proceed further than 7 drops as the nausea was putting me off big time...this was an apparent indication it was 'working'. I can't realy say I gave it a fir trial though. Also the friend who tried it, was also having chemotherapy aswell, so it wasn't really a clear indication of it's failure or success. She made great progress in her healing, though sadly not a full recovery. The chemo led to further complications, which is sometimes sadly the way. She tried hulda clark zapper, etc. I gave it my best shot...Though , respected her decision in the end.

Part of the attraction of using MMS, was that it stated, the toxins, virus etc terms to harmless sodium in the body, & then expelled naturally, thus quite amazing, if so..
I did not feel any amazing new state of health after geting up to 7 drops from waht I can remember. It was about 3 years ago approx. if my memory serves me correct...

I have recently discussed this with a like-minded person, & they recommended doing it, as they had got to the 15 drops & felt it had helped them. THhis chap was/is also doing the Andreas Moritz 'amazing liver & gallbladder flush'(a self-help book, I believe)...which he had started sometime after MMS....

A friend who was going out to uganda to work with orphanages & to set up sustainable communities for them, well I told him about MMS at the time, he got in touch with a suplier in Canada(where he is from) & the supplier donated a load of MMS for him to take with him to uganda.....Htook it with him, & gave it to the Ugandan people he met, as it is reputed to cure malaria in a matter of three hours, at least! Which is one of africa's bigest health challenges(& Jim Humble's mission I believe, to cure africa of Malaria), among other things...Well, friend, who I met up with on hios way back from Uganda a few months ago, He told me got malaria out in Uganda, & used the MMS & it had cured him! So that was one report of it's effectiveness I have heard from people I know who have put it to the test.....

Personally, for general health & detox, I would use a electro-medicine & a combinaton of anti-oxidants....It might be right for some people. I know what you mean about putting bleach into your body Karen, even if it is small diluted amounts...I gave it a try anyhow....

I am currently taking(detox wise) chlorella, micronised Zeolite powder(apparently powder is better, so I hear)....barley grass(great body alkaliser & all round good stuff), growing some wheat grass fresh & juicing it, gradually getting into it again, kombucha, easily brew your own, & cheaper, Also colon cleanse(easily overlooked with detoxes often, but the foundation of a detox) therefore, kefir or a decent probiotic & health flora for gut. Some kinds of digestive aid also occasionally, ginger, peppermint, digestive enzymes etc....I move between these kind of supplements.....growing your own & juicing is the way to go if you want to get down & boogie health wise, whatever it is...I would say....takes times & effort, but is worth it in long run...freeze dried powders are better than nothing & use them too....Sadly most people., including myself, are overfed & under nourished in general...this is why I supplement the above supplements..attaining a balance is my objective...

Give the body what it needs & it will heal itself. Holistic approach would be logical, to address root cause, chicken & egg....

...I guess 'listening 'for what the body needs...is the place to be....

I find it is the conflict with what is wanted & what is needed, addiction is about what we WANT, not what we need....media advertising plays on this in my experience..thus making it more challenging & teaching us to be stronger, more disciplined & discerning, just for starters.....anyhow, I can feel I am meandering somewhat.....

Good health to all....

...good points there Karen....I agree, it can be a minefield sometimes. Discernment required... I know what you mean....
horse's for course's....

So Orgonaut, Karen, are you deciding whether to try it, already tried it..etc?

Have you had any experiences with MMS or any detox programmes yourselves?
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karen
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Leo,

I work with detox/drainage with my clients on a regular basis, but never in a one-size-fits-all way. It's always from a broader perspective assessment of what the individual needs at a particular time.

When you give the body what it needs, that addresses only one aspect of the life force - the one that's about homeostasis., balancing things. The operative law of nature there is the law of opposites.

But even if you achieved homeostasis, there may still be disease entities that aren't budging, because an entirely different principle of natural law is involved in that case, and it's actually not about homeostasis.

Providing the proper nourishment and correcting imbalances is what most of the natural health field is about, and that's an important foundation that needs to be in place first. But many people are doing that and finding that they're still not getting to the root of the problem. So they just continue to do more and more nourishing and healing things, and still it doesn't reach the root of the problem.

And that's because the root of the problem requires invoking an entirely different principle - the law of similars, not the law of opposites. Well, those two form a functional polarity, like yin and yang, so they're not really separate, although they are distinct. And the disease entities need to be treated via the law of similars in order to remove them. No amount of balancing or detox or nutrition can do that.

When disease entities are involved, and they usually are for most people, it's like there's a kind of impregnation of the life force, and that needs to be removed. All the proper foods, nutrients, detox, etc., work on the law of opposites to balance things, and that won't affect the impregnation. Dr. Hahnemann discovered that only the law of similars applied to the specific disease entity can remove it.

There's another important question about detoxification that needs to be addressed - Why is the body holding on to the toxin in the first place? Often when people do detox regimes and seem to get rid of lots of nasty stuff, the body will simply produce the toxins again itself. Even heavy metals can be produced within the body, and often are, until deeper levels of dysfunction are cleared up. So simply neutralizing a toxin by biochemical means is not always effective.

But the natural medicine field has the same view as conventional medicine, that fixing the biochemistry is the answer. Whether it's with drugs or with relatively less toxic substances, it's essentially the same thing. We have to look to the deeper functional level beyond biochemistry for the bigger picture.

I'm not saying that detox isn't useful, but it needs to be done within this larger framework. Some people can tolerate it more than others. But for many people, t's not where they need to focus, until they have removed many of the disease entities and the body is ready to let go of the toxins in an appropriate way. Then that can be facilitated safely.

I'd also say that nausea from the MMS can be an iatrogenic effect, like a drug effect. Chlorine has quite a symptom profile itself, as you can see in any Materia Medica. It could be that the liver is being stressed and is not being properly supported. That's why I never recommend detox without also "drainage" remedies to support the organs that we're asking to work overtime.

When a treatment causes a symptom, it's important to know the difference between a true healing reaction and a reaction from an improper treatment. But it's very easy especially for marketers of products to say that all reactions are healing reactions and it means the product is working.

As for malaria, that can be removed at the causative level with remedies that act on the law of similars. Otherwise, other methods are only palliating symptoms, which can be useful of course but not the best way to go.

-Karen
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Leo
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, Thanks for the very informative & helpful reply there Karen....

Smile

I learnt a few things there....yes, can be quite complex health issues, sometimes...
We are all so unique & all need different things at different times. KNowing what that is & how to go about it is an empowering process...I feel good health is about Living One's Truth unltimately, being aligned with that & acting in acordance with it....Just me take on it...

Having a framework to understand it from , such as homepathy or some other modality that works, is great...I studied herbalism & nutrition diploma back in 1994. Along with lots of other holistic therpaies, in fact introdiced to most of them, even got to play around with Kirlian photography machines & energy medicine.....

It makes alot of sense what you wrote there...DIseased entities, is this a description of the patient? or are you describing something that a client/patient might be host too?

I am thinking the latter you are referring to...THe shamanic approach to Health seems to make more & more sense to me....the traditional tribal wayof health & healing & their model of the world & reality...of which there are so many...it is one of my interest's & one that helps me understand. Illness, essentially being a 'loss of power'(generally speaking), in this framework, & also, the removal of entity attachments & the such like...

the many paths to the top of the mountian of good health....always a great view from the top whenyo get there....and you can see all around you..360degrees..... Very Happy
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karen
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Leo,

Quote:
I learnt a few things there....yes, can be quite complex health issues, sometimes...
We are all so unique & all need different things at different times. KNowing what that is & how to go about it is an empowering process...I feel good health is about Living One's Truth unltimately, being aligned with that & acting in acordance with it....Just me take on it...


I totally agree. But the path to getting there can be full of twists and turns! And itís astounding how deeply some of the layers of disease can be. Just when you think that youíve ďbeen there done that,Ē you find that itís like peeling a huge onion, and another layer that was hidden before is surfacing so you can work more deeply now.

In my own case, this is why I seem to be working on the same issues for a long time - the path is like a spiral where you can keep coming around to the same things time after time, but each time you are further along and working at a deeper level that you couldnít have reached before. Sometimes it feels like a magic trick where youíre pulling something out of a hat and you feel like you ďshouldĒ have come to the end, but it keeps coming and thereís no end in sight.

Thatís where having a map that shows the actual territory to be covered, not just how it looks superficially, is very important. Symptoms come and go. They may be healing reactions, and they may be the life force trying to tackle a disease and spinning its wheels. Itís really impossible for us to sort this all out on our own, but a Heilkunst practitioner has the means to sort out the entire case.

Quote:
Having a framework to understand it from , such as homepathy or some other modality that works, is great...


Yes! Iíd say that having a framework, a map of the territory, is absolutely essential - otherwise we donít have a systematic approach, but are just shooting in the dark, hit-or-miss. Thatís the way the natural health field generally operates - people have their preferred methods, whether itís acupuncture or herbs or Reiki, or a combination of lots of things, and then many people are putting together a hodgepodge of those things,.

But no one is standing back and making a more scientific assessment of what a particular person really needs. I shouldnít say that no one does, but Iíve only encountered one system of therapeutics that is more than just a particular preferred method or a particular route that someone likes best - itís the whole map that shows which routes a particular person needs at a particular time.

I used the hit-or-miss approach with my own health issues for decades, until in 2002 I discovered a rational, overarching system for understanding ALL of the other methods.

That system is known as Heilkunst, which is the name that Dr. Hahnemann gave to his complete medical system. Homeopathy is only one small part of that system - like one small room in a large mansion. Thatís why homeopathy as itís usually practiced is very limited and doesnít have the high success rate that Heilkunst does with all sorts of complex, chronic conditions that we have in modern times. Homeopathy can remove secondary diseases but canít remove the more primary diseases that give rise to them. Heilkunst can.

Quote:
I studied herbalism & nutrition diploma back in 1994. Along with lots of other holistic therpaies, in fact introdiced to most of them, even got to play around with Kirlian photography machines & energy medicine.....


And those things are excellent - I use those things with my clients. The key is to know where they all fit in and when and how to bring a particular tool according to a broader scientific, principled approach. Otherwise, it's just hit-or-miss.

All those tools we're mentioning work according to the law of opposites - they correct imbalances, but they donít remove disease per se. This is the deeper functional understanding we need in order to bring natural medicine into the real of true science. When you use various tools with greater consciousness, you're working with a bit more light than we're usually doing by shooting in the dark.

Now, of course, we need to define disease, and Dr. Hahnemann did that very clearly. Disease is not an imbalance - itís more like a pregnancy, where something has impinged on the life force in a certain way so that now somethingt has been ďengenderedĒ that wasnít there before. Disease exists on the dynamic (energetic) level and is not material at all - only the effects (symptoms) are material.

This is what I meant by a disease entity. The disease could be an infectious disease, an emotional disease, an inherited miasm, a drug effect, or a trauma or injury, to name a few. Once these things have taken hold of the life force on the dynamic level, they canít be removed by any of the healing methods which simply correct imbalances.

Quote:
It makes alot of sense what you wrote there...DIseased entities, is this a description of the patient? or are you describing something that a client/patient might be host too?


Yes, itís a good way of thinking of it, the person as host. We have susceptibilities, vulnerabilities, and in principle this is like a sexual receptivity that produces offspring. If the person isnít susceptible to malaria, for example, there will be no resonance between the personís life force and the life force of the malarial entity. In that case, malaria canít ďengenderĒ disease in that person. But if there is a resonance and it does engender disease, then that disease entity needs to be removed according to the law of similar resonance.

The remedy resonates with the disease entity according to similar resonance, and annihilates the disease. If you apply remedies according to the law of opposites - for example, if you use anti-malarial drugs or herbs or such, you may help relieve some symptoms but you are essentially just palliating, or suppressing symptoms. The ďimpregnationĒ still remains until it is actually removed, and that requires a qualitatively different process.

This is what we see with all the natural health methods that help to strengthen people in a certain way, help relieve some symptoms, but then the person hits a wall where they canít move beyond. Actually, as the body is strengthened, it ďdecidesĒ that now it is strong enough to try to counteract a certain disease impingement.

And the way it does that is by creating symptoms. But then itís like a wind-up toy hitting a wall, and it spins it wheels. It got wound up with the momentum to move forward, but now all that momentum goes into the wheel spinning, because of the resistance of the wall. And I canít tell you how many times Iíve experienced this on my own healing path, and also observed it in many other people. I see it happening everywhere.

Now, there are some people who donít have a lot of disease going on, and they respond well to the balancing methods alone. This is the condition that people were in over 100 years ago - they would have an indisposition, not a true disease, and they could take some herbs and take some healing baths and be back in shape.

These days we have so much more going on. Our consciousness is different from the ancients too, so the ancient systems donít work as well for us as they did for the societies they were developed for.

Quote:
I am thinking the latter you are referring to...THe shamanic approach to Health seems to make more & more sense to me....the traditional tribal wayof health & healing & their model of the world & reality...of which there are so many...it is one of my interest's & ŚŚone that helps me understand. Illness, essentially being a 'loss of power'(generally speaking), in this framework, & also, the removal of entity attachments & the such like...


Yes, they do understand the concept of loss of power due to parasitic entities. I had a lot of shamanic healing myself, and i practiced a similar kid of psychic healing for a while. The problem I saw there was that there was not much in the way of true science, no systematic therapeutics that could be applied in each case, especally with the kinds of complex conditions we have today. I see these ancient systems as tied to particular cultures for whom they worked well; but in my view, we need a modern medicine for modern people. Thatís what Heilkunst is.

This kind of discussion can tend to create more confusion because we havenít laid down a foundation in defining our terms. Mostly when people talk about disease and healing, no one is even attempting to clearly define what those things are, which is fine when what you have is an ideology or belief system.

But if you want a true science of healing, you have to ground your understanding in principle and clearly define the terms. The Heilkunst system has that grounding, although taking certain ideas out of context and bringing them up in these relatively short discussions without laying out the whole foundation can be a bit misleading.

Just wanted to say that as a kind of disclaimer! I'm happy to dig into the subject further if there's interest. Besides my consulting website which focuses on the foundational work of "regimen," I also have a blog that contains pieces I've written on various topics within the Heilkunst system, so anyone interested can take a look at those:
http://heilkunststudies.com

-Karen
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